S: Regarding the COP27 summit in Egypt, many are calling for it to be boycotted in connection to what you have described — repression against political and environmental activists. What do you think: should it be boycotted and why?
AM: It seems to me that here, everyone can choose their own strategy; if some activists decide that they want to go there, it is important that they go. Plus, activists are not calling for a boycott, but for voices from the most vulnerable countries to be heard. And activists from Europe, for example, have tried to help activists from these countries to get there, because this COP will be more about helping the most vulnerable countries. They will discuss, for example, ‘loss and damage’, damage which is already caused by the climate crisis — because there are countries which are suffering less from the crisis and have more resources, and these countries should help others.
Unfortunately, Russia is not playing any kind of role in this. Instead of starting a war and spending how much on it? Five hundred million dollars a day? We could spend this money on helping these more vulnerable countries. International support would grow as a result, not because we are seizing and forcefully holding more and more territories, but because we would be helping other countries to cope with their problems. That is, we could have a decent foreign policy, not what it is now. So if I was able to go, I’d think about this. I would weigh up the pros and cons. Many activists in Europe who don’t understand what they will be doing there, maybe won’t need to go. But a complete boycott is also unproductive, because negotiations will take place regardless, and it is important not just to raise the voices of politicians, who do not always represent the majority opinion, but the voice of civil society.
S: How do you see the future of environmental activism in Russia and the world? What strategies do you think are the most successful in developing the climate and environmental movements?
AM: To me, it seems there is no single strategy that will help us cope with these problems. For example, the recent actions of activists who poured soup on paintings did more harm than good. But I think that it is important to look more carefully; much of the media wrote about these actions, but they didn’t really change anything, they simply poured something on the glass and drew attention to themselves, to environmental problems. A lot of people were talking about them because the media and corporations want to find the guilty ones and want to show not the changes that activists have achieved through peaceful protests, but the face of activism now as being like this, that these activists are allegedly delusional or something like that. But it’s not like that.
Now, many young people are in a state of silence. Many are depressed, they do not understand what to do, or how to continue their lives when we are in danger of catastrophe. Besides, because of the war, people are in a very vulnerable emotional state. So simply starting to say, ‘Oh, how bad we are!’ — does not help us solve problems with the environment or politics. It is clear that we need to seek changes in Russia as a whole so that Russia becomes a free country so that we can take to the streets and so our judicial system works. But if people in Europe generally understand what the climate crisis is, then in Russia, activists have a lot of work to do. And for this to take place, we need to ensure that we have democratic institutions, and find decent people in government who will not violate human rights. And after this, we will build a green movement in Russia, which, unfortunately, it does not yet have.
S: Then the last question is about Russia itself. Today, Russia receives 60% of its export revenue from the sale of hydrocarbons. Renewable sources of energy are barely used in the country, and other countries are far ahead in this way. In the hypothetical situation you have just described of a change of power, how do you see a green transition? Is it possible without receiving oil and gas revenue?
AM: This is a good question, because now, revenues from oil and gas are already decreasing, and in December there will be an oil embargo. With gas everything is complicated, because there is no embargo on it, and instead, we are going to blackmail Europe ourselves — Russia has not shown itself to be a very reliable partner in this respect. As it turns out, this is the economic impasse into which the government has led us. We will all have to deal with this, and there are no simple solutions here. For a transition to renewable energy, we also need money, and this money will have to be found somewhere. And when Russia becomes free, it will need to establish partnerships with Europe, but now, Russia as a whole is treated as a very dangerous country there. We will need to convince them that we are decent, and that we are not murderers. We will have to put a lot of effort into restoring our image as a reliable partner in the international arena, and it will be a long road.
We are very far behind, and the war has only made it worse; Russia is now not only isolated by sanctions, but also by attitudes to Russians. And these attitudes, unfortunately, are justified, because many people have really not stood up against the crimes committed in our name. Few of us chose Putin, but many have participated in this, many have some share of responsibility — some have less, some have more. And when Russia becomes free, people who made these decisions will go to prison. And other people, who were simply silent or even supported what was happening, will not face any legal consequences, but they will have to live with this their whole lives. It seems to me that what matters is not what we defended, the fact it will be difficult for us after the war, but how we will live with it afterwards. It is very difficult to comprehend what is happening in Ukraine; in Bucha, in Mariupol, and in other destroyed cities, and we will be thinking about it for a long time. We are facing difficult times. But it will be easier than when your brother, son, or father, can just be sent to die, and not for something good, but for the ambitions of one person.
In any case, it will be better when we are free, but unfortunately, the economy is falling apart, and Putin has led us here. Even so, I hope we make it. The tools of activism can help us in this — solidarity, mutual aid; everything which we built in Russia up until the war started. We do have a civil society, there are NGOs which help people who are left without homes — ‘Nochlezhka’, for example, which is why it was declared a foreign agent — and other NGOs, which continue important work… We have this experience, and there are people who can get involved in politics, who can take responsibility themselves. And when we have decent leaders who can talk to people, we will be able to solve all these problems. But of course, one shouldn’t think all this will change straight away. I hope things won’t be worse for us than in the nineties, but everything will still be very difficult. A lot of things have been destroyed. So far this isn’t visible, they are trying to patch up all these holes, but a great many processes are irreversible and a lot will have to be built from scratch.
S: Arshak, thank you very much, good luck with your appeal, and just good luck in activism, in the fight.
AM: Thanks, the same to you!
Translation: Rachael Horwitz
Editing: September collective